Minas Tirith modeled after Gondolin?

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AralomiŽl 09/Feb/2003 at 02:16 AM
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There seem to be a lot of similarities between the city of Minas Tirith and Gondolin. Does anyone know if they built Minas Tirith to resemble Gondolin or are they just coincidences?
Unjustly Banned 09/Feb/2003 at 05:30 AM
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Minas Tirith was originally Minas Anor and just a Tower. We also don’t know if it resembled Gondolin, but yes there seems to be a lot of similarities. We know about the great fountain and the tower of Ectehelion in Minas Titirth wich obvioulsy got the name from the person(Elf Lord) Ecthelion. Also seven doors and seven circles of the city is also symbolic.
Sulimo 09/Feb/2003 at 10:37 AM
Pilgrim of Isengard Points: 1444 Posts: 868 Joined: 05/Jan/2003

well there are some similarities but i never payed attention on such things,interesting question,now minas tirith was named before minas anor and was just a tower ,after the fall of osgiliath it was named minas tirith,as glorfindel said the similarities i agree with him

Silver CŠno 09/Feb/2003 at 10:54 AM
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Glorfindel, the ecthelion tower’s name is probably (although not sure) due to one of the stewards name and not because of that Ecthelion. Though that door stuff is a very interesting point you got there. Perhaps thiss should be moved to advanced lore.
leglas 09/Feb/2003 at 10:58 AM
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some similarities in both of them being last posts before entering wholly evil lands, but I think any similarity would have been based on Minas Tirith wishing to reflect the glories of Gondolin, and finally everyone knows where Minas Tirith/Anor is
Aldamir 09/Feb/2003 at 12:33 PM
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I always imagined Gondolin as being a much larger city than Minas Tirith, but I can see the similarities, like how both cities were pretty much the only hope for the elves and men of Middle Earth, one fought Morgoth and the other was against his servant Sauron. Gondolin fell though, and Minas Tirith didn’t.

Elnarsil 09/Feb/2003 at 03:53 PM
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The Numenoreans had a lot of contact with Eldar of both Aman and Middle Earth and they learned great craft from them. There could have been survivors of Gondolin among both of those kindreds and they could have taught the approximate design to the Numenoreans, but the Elves which never left Aman could teach the design of Tirion, since Gondolin was modeled after it.
Unjustly Banned 09/Feb/2003 at 05:34 PM
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ElweThingol what do you think on whom did he got his name...the stewerd that is

Have I already told you that ElwŽ Singollo name is free

AralomiŽl 09/Feb/2003 at 08:07 PM
Doorwarden of Minas Tirith Points: 5040 Posts: 4342 Joined: 14/Jan/2003
    Elnarsil, a good point you make. I hadnít drawn the connection all the way back to Tirion. I couldn’t find an extensive description of Tirion though. I was thinking of the seven gates and the seven circles w/seven gates and the two white towers (although Iím sure towers were a common theme) And that both cities were built into mountains. And the theme of 7 which I think comes from the seven stars of the Sickle of the Valar (The Big Dipper) that Varda hung as a sign of the fall of Morgoth.
    Glorfindel, the Ency. of Arda says the tower was rebuilt by Steward Ecthelion 1 three centuries before LOTR and that’s where it got its name.
    I’m not sure how or if this thread should be moved to Advanced Lore. If anyone still thinks it should move and knows how to do it, please do. I’d like to find out more if there is anything.
Huan the Hound 09/Feb/2003 at 09:16 PM
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Well they were both white and probably both influenced, as were the Numedorians, by the Elves, but Gondolin was hidden in a mountain and that was obviously not the case with Minas Tirith. I dont think it was deliberately modeled on Gondolin other than the general elvish influences.
Unjustly Banned 10/Feb/2003 at 10:05 AM
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AralomiŽl did you actually read my thread? If you don’t understand it I will explain it to you. Not only Minas Tirith, the capital of Gondor was built in the example of Gondolin(seven gates and seven cirlces and so on...) but Stewerds of Gondor were named on great Lords of Gondolin as well. I see connections in that as well. It is not important wheter the tower got the name from Stewerd that re-built it but by whom that Stewerd was named after.
AralomiŽl 10/Feb/2003 at 11:35 PM
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Glorfindel, Now I understand what you were saying about the Stewards. Didn’t before. So Gondolin was important enough in memory for the names of its Lords to be handed down to the Stewards. What do you think of the idea about the significance of the number seven? It appears again and again.
Unjustly Banned 11/Feb/2003 at 09:19 AM
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Glad you asked me because I noticed it as well.I just think that Tolkien liked to play with certian numbers as with words as well. He was very fond not just by the numbers of seven and three but he also had some kind of bizzare "obsession" with the number 144 wich appears in few places as well. For example there were 144 Elves at the begining and there were 144 guests on Bilbo’s birthday party.

AralomiŽl 11/Feb/2003 at 05:28 PM
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Interesting, I wasn’t aware of the numbers 3 and 144 being important too. Although I vaguely remember there being a joke about a gross in the Hobbit. I’ll have to keep an eye out for their occurences. I just got the Atlas of Middle Earth and another similarity between Gondolin and Minas Tirith is that they are both circular cities. By the way Asfaloth is very cool.
Unjustly Banned 11/Feb/2003 at 08:54 PM
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Yes and when you look on the number of three you will get the three Silmarili, then there were originally three elven fathers and branches, the Eldar or the elves who decided to go on the ’Great Journey’ divided in three branches as well. Third branch divided into three other branches and not to mention the three elven rings. Tolkien really had some obsession when it comes to Elves and the number of three.

Oh and thanks, I get that alot...people just like my horsie 

Devin 11/Feb/2003 at 10:16 PM
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Hmmmm There are a lot of Similarities it would make sense for Minas Tirith To be a product of Gondolin modeling

AralomiŽl 12/Feb/2003 at 12:07 AM
Doorwarden of Minas Tirith Points: 5040 Posts: 4342 Joined: 14/Jan/2003
Glorfindel, don’t forget the Three Ages of Arda (of course there is a fourth age, but all the important things happen in the first three). Another seven is that the Hill of Guard that Minas Tirith was built on was 700 feet high.
A couple interesting facts, although they seem to do nothing to further the idea of similarity between the two cities: Each of the Seven Gates of the Hidden Way into Gondolin were built of a different material: wood, stone, bronze, wrought iron, silver, gold and steel. The outer wall of Minas Tirith was made from the same "impenetrable black rock as the Tower of Orthanc."