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  1. Rivvy Elf's Avatar
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    #1

    Would Dior have died of old age under different circumstances? Is his spirit in Arda?

    I recall from my reading of the Silmarillion that it was mentioned that Earendil was the first mortal to step in Valinor, implying that he would have died of old age and his spirit would move on from Arda, like other mortals. I believe Elwing would've had the same fate as well.

    But what of Dior? Dior also had maia blood in him from Melian. Would he have died of old age as a mortal in more peaceful times before the Peredhil rule was created (the rule that allowed Earendil, Elwing, Elrond, Elros, and their children to choose whether they wanted their fate to be like elves or men)?

    Also, because Dior was killed before Earendil stepped foot in Valinor, and if Dior would've had the same fate as one of the Edain, does that mean Dior's spirit already moved on from Arda? Does this mean that his spirit is forever sundered from Nimloth, who was an elf maid (who's spirit is tied to Arda) and presumably would not have been offered a choice to become mortal? Would this be one of the more underspoken tragic events of the First Age?


  2. Lady Aikári's Avatar
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    #2
    Rivvy: Dior was one of the early halfelves. I have no idea really which genes would have ruled stronger, the mortal genes of his father Beren or the immortal genes of his mother Luthien, who was herself half-Maia. Personally I would give his Maia and elven heritage the positive side of doubt and think he would live surely much longer than the average human at that time. But he remains mortal after all. The halfelven choice was given to his daughter Elwing and her husband Eärendil on coming to Valinor. Elwing chose for being an elf, after she had given birth to Elrond and Elros. She did it, because of the choices of her mother Luthien. So the Peredhil rule was for Eärendil and Elwing and their descendents, as they chose not be elf or man before they had any children themselves, given by Manwë to them.

    Dior must have followed the same fate of the Edain, died and went the Halls of Mandos. Nimloth would have followed the fate of her kind, and yes they are seperated from other until the time all comes together again. Yes, it is one of the underspoken and underlighted tragic events of the First Age.

  3. Túrin's Avatar
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    #3
    Yep, all indications that we have is that Dior was mortal.

    As you noted: Earendil was described as a "mortal Man" even though he was half Elf, half Man. It seems that being "Mannish" takes precedence - which actually makes a lot of sense when you think about the Gift of Men, and how the ability of Earendil's family to choose their fate descends down some family lines but not others.

    Elros chose to be Man, presumably married a mortal woman, and his children had no choice.
    Elrond chose to be Elf, and married an Elf, but his children still got the choice.

    Why the discrepancy? Elladan, Elrohir, and Arwen all had mortal blood in their ancestry, so they have a birthright of sorts to the Gift of Men. Elros basically accepted the Gift of Men on behalf of all his descendants (later to their chagrin). We also have no indication that Eldarion was allowed a choice, which fits the theory. If I recall correctly, there's also a bit somewhere - Silmarillion or Letters, I think - that describes how the Valar cannot remove the Gift of Men, which affirms the implication that it's a bit of a special thing.

    There's also a bit in HoME V: Lost Road and Other Writings where Manwe decrees this "rule":

    "Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted them; but in this matter the powerof doom is given to me [Manwe]. This is my decree: to Earendil ad to Elwing and their sons shall be given leave each to choose freely under which kindred they shall be judged." (Loast Road and Other Writings, Quenta Silmarillion)

    And there is a note to the text where Christopher Tolkien notes:

    §9 It is to be observed that according to the judgement of Manwe Dior Thingol’s Heir, son of Beren, was mortal irrespective of the choice of his mother."
    She killed them with mathematics. What else could it have been? ~ Jayne Cobb
    Honorary Doctorate, University of College, Department of Narv

  4. Rivvy Elf's Avatar
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    #4
    Yeah, I wouldn't want to be placed in Nimloth's shoes. To Nienna I would go! Though perhaps their sad story would make a good fanwork opera.

    Thanks for the helpful responses, Aiks and Turin! I do like those text quotes from Lost Road and Other Writings, since it shows that the gift of men in regards to blood mortality preceded the elves attachment to Arda even after physical death. It makes sense philosophically since not staying in one place for too long does increase one's experiences, though I guess they may have no knowledge of their previous life in the former world. In the long long run then, one could argue that the inner spirit of men becomes more wise than elves, the latter whom are only limited to Arda.

    The implication, assuming that Thingol and the people of Doriath knew that Dior was mortal, signifies big postmortem character development for Thingol, and Dior being mortal would make the change in philosophy of Thingol even more poignant.


  5. ElendilTheShort's Avatar
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    #5
    I thought Tuor was the first mortal to Valinor and was actually thereafter counted among the Eldar.

  6. Saranna's Avatar
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    #6
    This what it hints at but doesn't exactly confirm, in The Silmarillion:

    n those days Tuor felt old age creep upon him, and ever a longing for the deeps of the Sea grew stronger in his heart. Therefore he built a great ship, and he named it Eärrámë, which is Sea-Wing; and with Idril Celebrindal he set sail into the sunset and the West, and came no more into any tale or song. But in after days it was sung that Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and was joined with the Noldor, whom he loved; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men.
    The Silmarillion III Quenta Silmarillion Chapter 23: "Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin"
    Remembering halfir by learning more each day

    Death comes to all
    But great achievements raise a monument
    Which shall endure until the sun grows cold.
    George Fabricius, 'In Praise of Georgius Agricola'

  7. Ankala Teaweed's Avatar
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    #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Túrin View Post

    And there is a note to the text where Christopher Tolkien notes:

    §9 It is to be observed that according to the judgement of Manwe Dior Thingol’s Heir, son of Beren, was mortal irrespective of the choice of his mother."
    Well, Christopher Tolkien's note is then the final word!
    Last edited by Ankala Teaweed; 03/Aug/2017 at 03:05 AM.

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